Ghislaine Maxwell in Her Own Words
Unearthed interview from 1997 HELLO Magazine features Maxwell on the rise
“America is a big country and there are lots of really famous people here. Movie stars walk around the streets and nobody pays any attention to them at all, so no one is going to pay any attention to me.” — Ghislaine Maxwell 1997
Since 2022, when Ghislaine Maxwell was sentenced to 20 years in prison and when she last spoke publicly, millions of words have been published about her. In newspapers, newsletters, magazines, books, blogs, posts on social media, comments below them, on and on. Almost none of the writing about her features in any serious way her own thinking. This is not entirely the fault of the writers. Ghislaine Maxwell has shared very little of her own thinking with the public in her decades of public life. She has given few interviews, few statements, made few attempts to interfere with the prevailing narrative that she is a monster and a predator who deserves everything she got. When you leave a lot of empty space, others fill it, project onto it their own assessments, conclusions, and theories.
I’m interested in complicating simplistic black and white narratives with the gray matter of reality. I think that’s the responsibility of writers, to assume the risk that knowing the full story will make it harder to accept the most popular one. We don’t have the full story yet. Maybe we never will. Jeffrey Epstein is dead and Ghislaine Maxwell is still not talking. But we do have more information than the media would have you believe.
Below, I offer an old article with an interview by Daphne Barak in 1997 HELLO Magazine, that injects some nuance into our impression of Ghislaine. At the time the interview was published, she was on the cusp of reinvention after the death of her father. Pre-Epstein. It’s rare to find Ghislaine in her own words. I reject the idea that it’s radical to read those words, to consider them, to factor what a person says about who they are into our understanding of who they are.
Like most subjects I invest in, Ghislaine’s story is complicated. People will continue to accuse me of “whitewashing” her for daring to question the official story presented by the government and the mainstream press. Isn’t that all the more reason to question it?
“I Bet She Wishes She Never Met Epstein”
In Brief, Some of the Backstory
Ghislaine Maxwell’s story begins with her father, Robert Maxwell. Born Ján Ludvík Hyman Binyamin Hoch into a poor Jewish family in war-ravaged Czechoslovakia, Robert endured unimaginable hardship. He joined the British Army in World War II, earning the Military Cross for bravery. But when the war ended, he returned to devastating news—nearly every member of his family had been murdered in the Holocaust.
His grief became his fuel for reinvention. He shed his birth name and origins to craft a new identity: Robert Maxwell was a sophisticated entrepreneur with a carefully fashioned upper class British accent designed to help him infiltrate and dominate the world of publishing.
His efforts paid off.
Maxwell emerged from the ruins of war as a bombastic figure, his piercing eyes relayed menacing charisma. Under his vision, he expanded the Daily Mirror into a sprawling media empire. Rupert Murdoch’s fiercest rival, etched the Maxwell name into the highest tiers of British society.
Amid his towering ambition, Maxwell was desperate to rebuild his family shattered by war. He and his wife, Betty, a reserved French schooler, welcomed nine children. Their youngest, Ghislaine, was born on Christmas Day 1961—seen as a gift to fill the void left by the loss of their daughter Karina to leukemia at three.
Tragedy struck again days after Ghislaine’s birth. Their eldest son, Michael, was critically injured in a car crash. He lay in a coma for seven long years.
In her memoir, Betty admitted that grief hindered her capacity to care for her other children. Ghislaine’s early years were marked by her mother’s emotional neglect. Once she could finally speak, she approached her mother to say,“Mummy, I exist.” Betty explained it as a haunting plea for recognition that helped shake her out of clouded despair.
To compensate for their neglect, her parents indulged Ghislaine. She learned young to navigate and appease her father’s unpredictable mood swings and volatile temper. Archival footage captures her as a young hostess in training, mingling with ease among the glittering gowns and suited dignitaries all vying for her father’s favor.
Despite their adoration, Robert’s fury was feared among the children. They lived in constant dread of incurring his wrath. One court record reveals a chilling incident: after a school-aged Ghislaine, obsessed with horses, nailed a poster above her bed on freshly painted walls. Her father responded to her defiance by pounding her hand with a hammer, leaving it swollen and bruised—as brutal lesson that decisions made under his roof without his approval would not be tolerated.
As adolescence took hold, Ghislaine leaned into a confident, flirtatious nature. Fluent in several languages by college, she viewed sex as a strategic tool for power and feminine advancement. At Oxford, she founded the Kit Kat Club—a social circle blending feminism with provocative matchmaking. Classmates recall her razor-sharp intellect, daring bravado, and unapologetic use of sex to entice and climb social ladders.
After Oxford, she launched a customized gifting business to serve Wall Street elites, including Donald Trump. She also worked closely with her father, often accompanying him to high-profile events, thriving in elite circles where philanthropy and hospitality expanded the Maxwell network, already a sprawling collection of famed contacts.
Her social skills made her indispensable. Jeffrey Epstein recognized this immediately.
After her father’s death, he drew Ghislaine into his orbit. Friends say she was madly in love and desperate to marry him. When that as a reality slipped away, she reinvented herself again, as indispensable handler managing his estates and meticulously orchestrating his social calendar to include the world’s most powerful figures.
From there, everything hurtled toward destruction.
GHISLAINE IN HER OWN WORDS
Q: Despite all that has been written about your family, you have never given an interview until now. Why have you decided to do so?
A: I didn't want to give an interview until now because I felt that anything I said would add to the already voluminous press coverage. It could also have been taken out of context and viewed as somewhat self-serving. Now there is no longer a trial, so hopefully whatever I say will be taken at face value. It is very nice to have the opportunity to say something in my own words, and it seems to me that this is the time and place to do it.
Q: How long have you lived in New York?
A: I moved here in 1991, originally to help with the US sales launch of The European. There was a launch event in October, and my father died in November.
Barak Remembers: On a tight budget in 1992, FOX flew Betty Maxwell to the city for an interview. She was not thrilled that it wasn’t first class. FOX assured Mrs. Maxwell she would be treated “like a queen” once she arrived in New York. Beforehand, Daphne approached Donald Trump to see if they could arrange for Mr. Maxwell to stay for free in a suite. Trump agreed—asking, as he would, “What’s in it for me?” FOX offered to promote Trump Plaza, featuring its entrance in the opening shot. Daphne recalls Betty Maxwell as very humble, still in a state of shock following her husband’s death. While in town, FOX hosted a dinner for her. Betty asked if she could bring her youngest daughter, Ghislaine, who had just moved to the city. Of course, they said—but with the reminder that Betty was the focus. Her daughter “wasn’t the scoop.”
Q: Why did you stay in New York after he died?
A: I thought I was going to help with some of the businesses like the Daily News and Macmillan Publishing. I imagined there would have been some role in which I could have been helpful to my family, but events unfolded and I found myself very quickly without a job.
Q: You had to leave your expensive apartment on Central Park. Where did you go?
A: It wasn't my apartment — I was renting it, and I had to find somewhere else to live. I found a very small studio about ten feet by ten feet. It was a box! The bed was up against one wall and, smack against the bed, was a little partition about six feet high. Behind it was a hob and sink — that was the kitchen. Next to it was a tiny bathroom, and that was it.
Q: How did you feel at the time?
A: Honestly, I didn't know what to think. It was a little confusing, to say the least. In fact, I am sure I was in a state of disbelief.
Q: So how long have you been in this new apartment?
A: It took me two years to afford to get out of the tiny studio, and I have been here for three years.
Q: Do you own it?
A: No, I rent it. I found it through friends. It is less stressful than going through real estate people.
Q: You have been running your own business since your father died. How would you describe what you do?
A: I do consulting work for different people in different areas in which I have expertise: publishing, communications, and computers. I enjoy the mechanics of business, and I enjoy working because it allows me to meet and interact with lots of different people. I have always worked and will always work. Today I also work out of necessity.
I have a hobby which I have turned into a working hobby — I buy and sell antiques for various people. They give me some sense of what they are looking for, and I will go to the auction houses, antique shops, and flea markets to find it. I also represent some companies as well. I do PR for Robert label perfumes, a new company.
Life at Headington Hall
Q: Did you have to work before your father died, being in such a privileged position?
A: Yes. My father always believed you had to earn your own keep.
Q: Did you find it hard to live up to his expectations?
A: My father had very high expectations, and if you attained one goal he would then have another, so you could never fulfil them because there would always be something else to strive for.
Q: Do you take after your father?
A: I have some physical resemblance: my eyebrows, his dark hair, his strong features — though I have my mummy's nose. Character-wise, my father was ambitious, determined, hard-working, and goal-driven. I like to think I share some of those qualities.
Q: Someone once wrote that he was disappointed in you because you were not as ambitious. Did you ever fall out with him?
A: Yes, we had a falling out, but it was only because he wanted me to work for him full time and I declined. My ambition has always been to work on my own and do my own thing.
Q: Was it easy to work for your father when you were so close?
A: My father wasn't an easy man to work for — for anybody. I wasn't given any special treatment; if anything, it was the opposite.
Q: Did he ever praise you at all?
A: Not very often. There was lots of stick and very little praise.
Q: Did you find him intimidating?
A: Well, he was very big, tall, and had a very loud voice, so that combination alone is a bit intimidating. He could be very demanding and tough. When he had something to say, you listened. It wasn't often that you would say “no” to him — “no” was not a word he would accept from someone else.
Q: Did your opinion count in an argument?
A: Having an argument with him was not something I would seek to do! I tried to avoid it if possible. If you had a difference of opinion, he would generally carry the day.
Q: Do you feel that you are lacking in confidence?
A: That is a tough question. At the time, my self-esteem took a battering, but I am an optimist by nature. Today I have confidence in my abilities and always think that I will win through — that is why I still strive. If I didn't think I could, I wouldn't.
Q: What is your strongest memory of your relationship?
A: His constant concern for my well-being. He always knew what I was doing, and he was always interested.
Q: Did he offer advice?
A: Well, he wasn't one of those people who just chit-chats — he was always very specific. If I asked, he would always give an opinion. I didn't always follow his advice, but I am sure he would have preferred it if I had.
Q: Did you and he have a closer relationship than your other brothers and sisters?
A: I am the youngest, and in most families the little one is always the one that gets more attention. So from that perspective, yes. But otherwise, my father had the same relationship with all of us — he was equally tough on everyone. He was equally a father to all of us.
Q: But he called his yacht after you?
A: I have a unique name, which is Norman French. I have been told it means “a ray of sunshine,” but I don't know if that is true. My parents tried to choose names for the children that would work in French and English, and by the ninth kid they gave up.
Q: Calling the yacht Lady Ghislaine gives the impression that you were a favoured child.
A: As I said, I was his youngest, so I was my father's little girl. If I were 80 and he were still around, I would still be his little girl. With parents, you reach a point where you don't grow up any more. He named the yacht after me in 1985, and there was a ceremony. It was a big surprise — I was very proud. I don't know how to describe something like that. It was great.
Q: But your name became world-famous when your father died. Where were you at the time?
A: I was in London. I was in the car when my brother Kevin called me and said he was missing. I didn't know what to think. He was missing and that was that — I wouldn't let my mind go down paths imagining the worst. I don't do that.
Q: Where were you when the news came through that he had been found?
A: I was at Kevin's house.
Q: What was your immediate reaction?
A: I was shocked — I couldn't believe it.
Q: Did you believe it was him?
A: He had been identified, so yes.
Q: Philip and your mother went to Spain immediately. When did you join them?
A: I flew out the next day. I had to borrow some clothes because I had very little with me in London. I went straight to the boat, where I met my mother and my brother. At that point, we had to deal with the police and the authorities.
Q: Did you go down and identify the body?
A: No, my mother and my brother went instead. I knew I was going to see him in public, covered in a shroud.
Q: Why was he buried in Israel?
A: Because he was Jewish and deeply committed to Israel and the Jewish people. He had a great love of Israel.
Q: Were you surprised that he was given a state funeral?
A: I don't think it was exactly a state funeral, but it was a big funeral, attended by heads of state and all the members of the Israeli Knesset. My father was Jewish, and I feel Jewish, although I am not Jewish. I consider that heritage a great part of my life, and it was something very important to my father. His family were murdered in the camps — that is not something you forget. It was a very important part of our lives. Unfortunately, I have not been able to go back to Israel since, but I hope to do so soon.
Q: According to pathologists, your father's body was found floating, which isn't consistent with drowning. What do you think happened to him?
A: I do not believe my father committed suicide. Apart from that, I don't know.
Q: You are convinced of this?
A: Yes. If he had committed suicide, he would have drowned — and he didn’t.
Q: You can't commit suicide and not have any evidence of it.
A: Much was made at the time of big financial problems, which is why the suicide theory came about. He didn't commit suicide because he didn't drown. There is no evidence of suicide. It was not unhelpful to certain parties that the suicide theory was put about, because it meant his life insurance policy would be in dispute.
Q: But if he had a heart attack and fell overboard...
A: There is no evidence that he had a heart attack.
Q: But the Spanish doctors indicated he was taking some pills...
A: I am unaware of any doctor indicating such a thing, and I do not believe he was doing so.
Q: They said he had a medical problem that the family didn't want to reveal.
A: That is simply not true.
Q: So if you don't think he committed suicide, do you think it could have been an accident?
A: Well, it could either have been an accident or it could have been murder.
Q: What do you think?
A: I think he was murdered.
Q: Why?
A: I can't see my father going to the side of a boat and dipping off the side. It is too easy to fall off the side of a boat. One thing I am sure about is that he did not commit suicide. This was just not consistent with his character.
Q: Kevin has said on television he thinks your father's death was an accident, so is yours just a personal theory?
A: I am not the only person in the family who thinks this. I can't discuss it further, however, because there is currently litigation pending about my father's life insurance.
Q: Did what happened to your father's companies come as a shock to you?
A: I had no idea what was happening. I was following events via the press.
Q: Did anyone ring you up and warn you what was about to happen?
A: No.
Q: You weren't as involved as your brothers in the Maxwell Group. What was your role in your father's companies?
A: At its height, I had eight or nine people working for me.
Q: You were young to be running a new publishing company. Did you feel confident because you had somebody behind you who could solve any problems?
A: I didn't think like that — I just did it. I'm very independent, and I always seek to do whatever I do on my own because I get pleasure out of doing it myself. So I wouldn't start something by thinking: Oh good, I can go back and check with my father if necessary.
Q: Were you the editor?
A: No, I wasn't — I don't remember whether I had any title. I had my own business at that time called Maxwell's Corporate Gifts, which did corporate gifts and dealt with long-service awards. It did some work for the Maxwell Group, but the majority of clients were outside the group. I loved it. I was 24 when I started it, after I left Oxford University.
Q: How old were you when your father first made you work?
A: I was very young. I worked in the post room, photocopying room, and answering the phones at Pergamon Press at Headington Hall, where we lived. I would be serving peanuts, serving drinks, and washing up afterwards.
Q: Were you paid for this?
A: I got sweetie money, so I could buy my favourite Cadbury's chocolates — and that was limited so I wouldn't buy too much of it.
Q: You have been accused of living off a trust fund between £80,000 and £100,000. Is this true?
A: No, absolutely not.
Q: Have you ever had one?
A: No, my father always made us work for everything. I do not have a trust fund.
Q: You have been accused of being a shopaholic, and a newspaper once claimed you spent $20,000 a month on your credit card. What do you suppose is the basis of these comments?
A: We can probably put that down to one of the many exaggerations and fantasies that have been written about me in the past. Supposedly, one of my friends told this to a journalist, but I find that hard to believe as I can't think of anyone I know who would say such a thing. It is utterly false. Given free time, there are many things I prefer to do over shopping. I am particularly into yoga. Frankly, I am happier reading a good book than shopping.
Q: Was there a time five or ten years ago when you did buy designer clothes?
A: I have a few pieces — not many — but I have never been into shopping, especially not for designer clothes.
Q: In most photos you always seem elegant and well-groomed. Does this mean that everyone assumes you…?
A: I know people who have no money at all who always turn themselves out really wonderfully and look great, and I know people with lots of money and wonderful clothes who don't look as wonderful as those without money. I don't think having money necessarily means you are elegant and well-turned-out. You can't control what people think.
Q: Does having the name Maxwell afford you certain privileges, or does it have its drawbacks?
A: The main drawback is the press. The advantages are whatever you make of them.
Q: Have you had any doors slammed in your face that wouldn't have been otherwise?
A: No. People have treated me fairly and kindly.
Q: Your father was called a bully in court. Would you agree with that?
A: He was very tough and he could be quite scary. If the definition of a bully is someone who is bigger and stronger than you, well, he was big and strong.
Q: He was called “Captain Crook” in court. How do you react to that?
A: When someone is dead, people can say whatever they like about that person. You can't control what people say. Obviously, I can think of other nicknames I would have preferred over that one.
Q: Were there any surprising sides to his character?
A: He gave wonderful bear hugs. I miss my hugs from my father. He also had a great sense of humour and was kind.
Q: But he could also be very cruel, like sacking your brother when he was late picking him up from the airport?
A: Yes, he had both sides. There was the loving daddy side and the tougher side. But people don't know that he had a great sense of humour. He loved jokes, and that is one of the things we shared in common. I collect jokes. I make them up, too. I go to stand-up comedy a lot here in New York.
Q: Do you miss him?
A: Yes, I do miss him because he was my father. A child always expects to outlive her parents, but there is no way to prepare for the loss when it occurs, especially under circumstances such as these. There are times in my life when I wish he was here. If I meet someone who is interesting, if I read a good book, or if I do something I think he would be proud of or appreciate — in the past I could, and now I can't. Yet I feel very strongly that my father is with me. I can hear what he would say. I know how he would respond to certain things.
When I am trying to resolve an issue or come up with a solution, I will mentally place him there and try to understand what he might say to me so he could give me some advice. I have some videos of him, so if I have a moment when I miss him, I can put the video on and have him in the room with me.
Q: And do you cry?
A: Sometimes. I try very hard not to let my grief show in public places, but I am definitely prone to tears at home. Sometimes if I am sad or watching a weepy movie, I can go through a box of tissues.
Q: Do people ask you about your father?
A: They ask me in general terms, mainly if I miss him. Friends and family who knew him and know me well do ask me about him, and I am thrilled to talk to them about him because it can be fun. Some people have anecdotes that I don't know, and I love hearing their stories and enjoy talking to them about him. With people who don't know him, I don't discuss him. I avoid the subject.
Q: Do you miss your family?
A: Yes, because they are incredibly far away and it makes lunch dates very difficult. But they do come here on business from time to time.
Q: Are you closest to Kevin and Ian?
A: We went to the same schools and we are the closest in age, so I spent more time with them. But I am close to all my brothers and sisters. We are a very friendly family. They are really, really nice people and I like them very much. I have fun with them and I enjoy their company.
Q: Did you go over to Britain during the court case?
A: No, hardly ever.
Q: How did you react when your brothers were accused of fraud?
A: I was shocked.
Q: Did you think they would be acquitted?
A: Of course. With the evidence, I couldn't see how the jury would come to any other conclusion.
Q: Where were you when the news came through?
A: I was here, they rang me. I was very relieved it was over.
Q: Do you feel a chapter has closed?
A: I am very pleased that proceedings are over and I hope they can now be left alone to make a life, because for five years they couldn't do it. My hope for them is that they can get back to some form of normal life and they can work.
Q: Kevin said that he didn't blame your father for what happened. Do you blame him?
A: I think if my father had lived, the events that unfolded would not have unfolded in the manner they did, and as I don't believe he controlled the moment of his death, I can't blame him either.
Q: Have you come to terms with everything that has happened and, if so, how?
A: What is past is past. You can't dwell on it. You have to move on, and I move on by working every day. You can’t keep going back.
Q: Did humour keep you going when it was really tough?
A: You have to have a sense of humour when things go wrong. I love to laugh. They say if you smile at yourself in the mirror it makes you feel better — I believe that. You have to laugh sometimes or it can be very, very sad. I am an optimist and find a positive light in everything.
Q: Do you miss England?
A: I love England. My friends and family are there, and I miss things about home, like Cadbury's chocolate, English taxi drivers, the sausages, bacon, milk — it’s quite different here. I miss the countryside; I love the smells, particularly of grass. It’s home — I grew up there. It’s magnificent and wonderful. I go back as often as I can, when I have business.
Q: Do you find you have more privacy in America?
A: The American press is different from the English press — less sensational and less intrusive into people's private lives. It doesn't matter who you are here, you are afforded more privacy just from the way the press handles itself. So yes.
Q: Can you be anonymous here?
A: America is a big country and there are lots of really famous people here. Movie stars walk around the streets and nobody pays any attention to them at all, so no one is going to pay any attention to me.
Q: And how about in England?
A: I go home and I don't find that people are pointing at me. Occasionally people do recognise me, but when they do they are very nice and friendly.
Q: Are you treated differently because you are Robert Maxwell's daughter?
A: When I meet people who don't know me, they react to me, not to who my father was. They respond to me as an individual, not to my family story.
Q: Do people still introduce you as Ghislaine, the daughter of Robert Maxwell?
A: That still does happen. But it's the truth — I am who I am. I am the daughter of Robert Maxwell, but when I am introduced to people as his daughter they don't respond to the Maxwell, they respond to me. They probably never met him and likely don't know very much about him, so their reaction can only be to me.
He was very big, tall, and had a very loud voice, so that combination alone is a bit intimidating. When he had something to say, you listened.
Q: Do you think you are a different person from the one you would have been if your life had gone on the way it was?
A: I think I am much more empathetic with other people's problems. If I find someone has a problem, I feel for them. Certainly, if someone tells me they have lost a parent, I fully understand the grief and sorrow they experience — something I couldn’t have done before. Friends come to me more with problems, and I have more time for people who are suffering in one way or another now than I might have had in the past, because I have been there. I make them coffee or just give them a hug, because if someone is not happy, I have time — as much time as they need. My friends were very nice to me when I needed their support, and I appreciated it very much.
Q: Do you plan to settle in the States?
A: It has always been possible that I will go back to England. It is all to do with work — I will go wherever the business is.
Q: Would you ever consider giving up business for marriage?
A: I don't believe that you necessarily have to choose between the two. I have always thought that one day I would get married and have kids, but it has never been a focus. It is not something I have set out to do. My focus is my business, but one day I would also like to get married and have kids.
Q: Have you ever gone through a broody stage?
A: I love children — my nieces and nephews, my godchildren — but I have to accomplish more before I feel able to have children. I am not ready. I want to be in a position where I can really focus on a child and do the best for that child, and I don't feel that I am in that position now.
Q: Would you prefer to bring up a child in the States or in England?
A: I’m not sure I’ll have an option. It depends who I marry and where I live.
Q: Has it been easy for you to have successful relationships with men?
A: Strong women who are independent can be somewhat intimidating to certain types of men, but I have had successful relationships. I’ve always grown up with men—I had three brothers, went to a co-ed school—Marlborough—which had 1,000 boys and 30 girls. Then I went to a predominantly male college, Balliol at Oxford, so I’ve always had men friends.
Q: Did the thought of having to face a father like yours put off a lot of potential boyfriends?
A: I’m sure every boyfriend dreads meeting a new girlfriend’s father!
Q: Do you find it difficult to trust people?
A: I’ve always been quite careful, and if anything, the events of the last few years have just reinforced that tendency. It’s always best to be careful and measured because you don’t always know what people want. So I listen and I am cautious.
Q: At what point did everything you went through really hit you?
A: This is an ongoing process. It still affects me.
Q: Is it getting any easier?
A: The death of a parent is something you deal with all the time. It doesn’t go away. It gets less with time, and you adjust, but it’s always with you.
Q: How close are you to your mother?
A: Very close. I like to think we give each other support. She is a wonderful woman—very wise, highly intelligent, and artistic. She writes, paints, and plays music. She currently gives lectures on the Holocaust and Jewish-Christian relations and was a visiting lecturer at Penn State University last year. She’s considered an authority in that area. Since my father died, she has become more active in this field because it’s her passion and her job now.
Q: Do you feel it’s unfair that she has to go out to work at 76?
A: I think it’s difficult, but it is what it is.
Q: Is she a strong woman?
A: She is very strong and has done very well. She was head of the Jewish parade here in New York last year—the first Gentile and first woman to do that. I was very proud of her and the way she works today. She’s great.
Q: It seems a little ironic that you go to Sotheby’s to buy things at auction when all your family possessions were sold at auction after your father’s death. How do you feel?
A: It was not one of the highlights! The auction included little gifts I had given my father, like a photo frame, a pen, or a tie. I would have liked to buy some mementoes but I didn’t because I didn’t have the means.
Q: How do you see your future?
A: I am optimistic about my future and believe things will continue to improve as time passes.
I don’t understand why people don't get what you're doing. Telling the entire story and making the case that maybe, just maybe, there's more to the story than meets the eye at first glance. Thank you for questioning the status quo and daring to dig deeper!
Interesting, very interesting interview. Obviously from before her “attachment” to Epstein. I’d say that growing up in that family, when she didn’t know how her father would relate her from hour to hour, must have been very difficult.