An interview with the Washington correspondent for New York Magazine, covering everything from Trump’s love of gossip to his thoughts on God to the prospect of boxers in bed
Olivia is a breath of fresh air. I couldn’t help but wonder if her love of driving ignites her intuition. Driving is my go-to when ever I’m feeling out of sorts or feel a change is coming. Being on the road IS so freeing. I couldn’t help but fantasize you and Olivia taking a road trip together (eat your heart out Gayle and Oprah!). I could see the two of you stopping at some unusual places with some interesting characters all the while cranking up some awesome music. Loved this piece Jessica!
After I finished reading this, I felt a little sad for Trump. He seems like a lonely soul. His narcissism is unparalleled as is his tenacity and resilience. Bravo to Olivia for being able to get such an intimate interview. I am looking forward to reading the piece. It was great to get a glimpse of the behind the scenes of their interview. I love the unique way you word your questions like "What else about his phone situation stood out?" You are a truly gifted writer and I'm so happy to have found you Jessica! sabrinalabow.substack.com
Just curious, not meaning to argue, but why do you say his narcissism is unparalleled? I’m certainly not a fan of some of his comments, but how is he any different than most of the elite?
I was married to a narcissist (Gemini ironically) and he was above & beyond President Trump in his narcissism. He was an abusive, manipulative a-hole. I don’t see Trump like that at all.
Happy you asked. I not only think he is a narcissist, which gets used to describe a lot of people, I think he actually has Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Some of the main traits are, "an inflated sense of self-importance, a need for excessive admiration. and a sensitivity to criticism." I have one family member who has this disorder as did an ex-boyfriend of mine who I almost married. I'm sry you did:( It sucks. Trump talks about his crowd sizes incessantly and to a fault as we saw Tuesday night and makes comments like how his administration achieved more than any other in U.S. history. The hyperbole he uses ad nauseam about himself and his administration's accomplishments are so off-putting. I think a lot of politicians have NPD and all are manipulative. You'd have to be pretty out there to want to be President. I think with him it's just more pronounced. That said, I hope he wins in November!
I wonder if you’d be liberal now if he’d been a raging conservative alcoholic.
Narcissists seek attention before anything else, as you know. If he was politically inclined it was because he thought it brought attention. That’s what Trump does, too.
I have a really hard time with the narcissist label. Armchair labeling of psych disorders should not be taken seriously. He does not have clinical narcissistic behaviors. Ego? Yes. However an overinflated ego does not make him a narcissist at all. Plus narcissists usually have one victim they concentrate on and the rest of the world thinks they’re wonderful humans. That is not how he operates. He’s a very generous person and narcissists are rarely generous unless they’re getting press and notoriety along with the generosity.
Rarely do I disagree with you Sabrina, but this time you’ve got it wrong.
Yes, it takes a lot to actually have a true NPD. And also, most are clinically women ironically. I talk about all the time the use of words like racist, sexist, misogynist, narcissistic etc. Cause then it takes away from the real victims of narcissistic behavior, the real racism an dso on. Most ppl that are assumed to have NPD are actually BPD. But you can't just diagnose that on a whim. Just cause a man is a loud, ego maniac, argues and belittles. That doesn't just mean NPD.
Exactly! Plus he can be all those things an also very generous and willing to help others at times. I’m thinking of the little boy suffering from cancer he just sent a letter, that little boy would have a hard time believing some of the ways/things he’s labeled.
My husband is USMC. Trump came to our base after a huge hurricane evacuated 90% of the base, and ruined the whole area. He came the day we were all allowed back on base. Checked out the base. The surrounding area. Talked to service members etc. Spur of the moment thing for them. Obviously it was planned, but not by much. He wouldn't do these things and keep em quiet if he was a real NPD. He's also a family man. NPD don't have adult children that still speak to them, marriages etc. Even his ex's all don't shit talk him. Petty little stuff, yes. But for the most part. You either love him or hate him. That doesn't just mean NPD. If ppl only realized how hard it is to truly diagnose that illness, they wouldn't be using that word so much.
To put this to rest for those wanting the clinical observations needed here you go:
From the DSM 5
To diagnose a narcissistic personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:
A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
Impairments in self-functioning (a or b):
a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem.
b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high to see oneself as exceptional or too low based on a sense of entitlement, often unaware of their own motivations.
Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.
b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others‟ experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain.
B. Pathological personality traits in the following domain:
Antagonism, characterized by:
a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others, condescending toward others.
b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.
C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.
D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual’s developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.
E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).
What Are The 9 Narcissistic Personality Disorder DSM 5 Criteria or Traits?
In addition to the criteria mentioned above, the DSM-5 narcissism guidelines also point out nine different features of narcissistic personality disorder that professionals should look for when diagnosing the condition: [2]
Inflated self-esteem or a grandiose sense of self-importance or superiority
Craving admiration
Exploitative relationships (i.e., manipulation)
Little to no empathy
Identity is easily disturbed (i.e., can’t handle criticism)
Lack of attachment and intimacy
Feelings of depression or emptiness when not validated
A sense of entitlement
Can feel like others are envious of them, or may envy others.
So once you’ve read through this you can stop referring to Donald Trump as a narcissist. It’s not who he is, obviously.
I'm happy to hear your perspective. I could absolutely be wrong with the "diagnosis." I don't know if he is clinically a narcissist but he definitely craves attention and admiration, has a very grandiose sense of self-importance and certainly think others are envious of him. The rest is up for debate as I don't know him personally. My brother-in-law is a clinical psychologist and my sister a social worker and both think he displays symptoms of NPD and both are voting for him! I think the larger issue is that he hurts himself with his overinflated ego. It undermines the truth of what he says. He went ballistic when Kamala made a false comment about his crowds leaving in droves because they were so bored. She knew that would get him and his non-stop hyperbole of being the BEST, GREATEST etc. is to the extreme. Just for the record I want him to win the election!
Husband is a clinical social worker who has spent 35+ years working with these behaviors. That’s why I recoil at armchair diagnoses. It doesn’t do the general public any good to label people in these ways.
No he doesn’t. Read the DSM 5 definition. If you can’t read facts and set aside your feelings, you’ll just have to cling to those feelings and hopelessly move through life.
I loved this article; I think both Jessica and Olivia have an uncommon sense of honesty and confidence. I wonder if Melania is a best friend to him. I heard somewhere they will talk over dinner for hours? Great questions, JRK! I love your curious mind.
Fascinating interview. Great questions and insightful answers from Olivia. I love that the two of you became closer, rather than divide, after a disagreement. Our country could use a whole lot more of this approach.
This article is super interesting (and once again) I’m making a comment that has nothing to do with this article. Megyn Kelly discussing Epstein with Tucker and alludes to some big information coming out.👀 https://youtu.be/uGGRElF0Wss?si=foqekW-xRMiU5gEH
Fantastic interview! You have made this election season so much more enjoyable, Jessica. 😊❤️
I’m curious if Olivia is a believer. I ask because she mentioned that she knew things as a child. I believe God gives the gift of discernment to many of us, even before we’re believers.
I loved the interview and the portrait. Captured him as I feel he is. Trump fascinates me. Wickedly smart, adept, caring and authentic.
I always ask myself with celebrities and politicians, "Would I leave my children with them to watch fir an afternoon?" I definitely would with Donald Trump. They would have fun and he would keep an eye on them. Not many can I say that about. Thank you for this look into the man. Trump for President!
Incredible. Olivia is the epitome of mindfulness. Her ability to allow people to just be is what has her shine as a writer. The key she mentioned in allowing one to involve yourself in the process is the best advice around. When you’re seeking openness but holding back you don’t make a connection; people can tell and also hold back.
Thank you for this interview. You allowed us to not only learn about the interview but also get to know two very talented women perfecting their craft. I love the portrait so much! ❤️🇺🇸❤️
Reading this felt like the documentation of a soon to be farewell. I have a bad feeling that portrait may be immortalizing him a final time. The psychological scrutiny is fascinating by Olivia and in Jessica’s questions. He’s an intensely interesting person and how he will go down in history will be perceived differently depending.
I’m not sure if Trump has a clinical diagnosis of NPD or just traits (and of course those Gemini tendencies). Either way, I don’t care. This man’s ego has enabled many to awaken. In order to lead to the magnitude we need, he’s bringing it and an enormous threat which is why they want to take him down. My fear is he won’t make it to the election and America will fall. I believe the assassination brought Trump to his knees to God. Olivia describes it perfectly. Jessica I hope you are able to interview Trump and Melania. I’ve asked you before and you said you didn’t want to but I think you do, or would. I know you would bring all the things we’ve wondered. Trump would get a kick out of you and you are strong enough to do it. I have Lyme disease and I’m in bed feeling awful today so I hope my ramblings make sense. Or if they don’t, who cares lol.
Trump can have narc tendencies without being a full blown narcissist. He has some - I find many leaders have the same traits. Either they are raised that way through a dysfunctional upbringing or the tendencies evolved due to the experiences they endured during their climb to power. It’s more than thick skin, it’s mental resilience with a dash of manipulation, ego and relentless self promotion.
On the topic of friendships, I think a lot of men struggle with deep male connections. Powerful men focus on work, women and in Trump’s case, strong relationships with his children. They seem to fill any “friend” gaps. I find his family relationships admirable. The whole family works together and they all get along, that’s unusual. No black sheep’s in the Trump family. Bravo.
Well my day is already an hour behind schedule 😊
Olivia is a breath of fresh air. I couldn’t help but wonder if her love of driving ignites her intuition. Driving is my go-to when ever I’m feeling out of sorts or feel a change is coming. Being on the road IS so freeing. I couldn’t help but fantasize you and Olivia taking a road trip together (eat your heart out Gayle and Oprah!). I could see the two of you stopping at some unusual places with some interesting characters all the while cranking up some awesome music. Loved this piece Jessica!
Great suggestion!! Do it Jessica!
Fantastic interview!
After I finished reading this, I felt a little sad for Trump. He seems like a lonely soul. His narcissism is unparalleled as is his tenacity and resilience. Bravo to Olivia for being able to get such an intimate interview. I am looking forward to reading the piece. It was great to get a glimpse of the behind the scenes of their interview. I love the unique way you word your questions like "What else about his phone situation stood out?" You are a truly gifted writer and I'm so happy to have found you Jessica! sabrinalabow.substack.com
Just curious, not meaning to argue, but why do you say his narcissism is unparalleled? I’m certainly not a fan of some of his comments, but how is he any different than most of the elite?
I was married to a narcissist (Gemini ironically) and he was above & beyond President Trump in his narcissism. He was an abusive, manipulative a-hole. I don’t see Trump like that at all.
Happy you asked. I not only think he is a narcissist, which gets used to describe a lot of people, I think he actually has Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Some of the main traits are, "an inflated sense of self-importance, a need for excessive admiration. and a sensitivity to criticism." I have one family member who has this disorder as did an ex-boyfriend of mine who I almost married. I'm sry you did:( It sucks. Trump talks about his crowd sizes incessantly and to a fault as we saw Tuesday night and makes comments like how his administration achieved more than any other in U.S. history. The hyperbole he uses ad nauseam about himself and his administration's accomplishments are so off-putting. I think a lot of politicians have NPD and all are manipulative. You'd have to be pretty out there to want to be President. I think with him it's just more pronounced. That said, I hope he wins in November!
I agree with you and love him anyway. Is that my toxic trait? 🤔
Not at all!
Thank you. Nicely said.
I’m glad you dodged a bullet. Mine was also a raging liberal alcoholic. I have no idea what was wrong with me. 😂
Mine was too! We all make mistakes Tonni. Just glad we both moved on!😘
I wonder if you’d be liberal now if he’d been a raging conservative alcoholic.
Narcissists seek attention before anything else, as you know. If he was politically inclined it was because he thought it brought attention. That’s what Trump does, too.
I have a really hard time with the narcissist label. Armchair labeling of psych disorders should not be taken seriously. He does not have clinical narcissistic behaviors. Ego? Yes. However an overinflated ego does not make him a narcissist at all. Plus narcissists usually have one victim they concentrate on and the rest of the world thinks they’re wonderful humans. That is not how he operates. He’s a very generous person and narcissists are rarely generous unless they’re getting press and notoriety along with the generosity.
Rarely do I disagree with you Sabrina, but this time you’ve got it wrong.
Yes, it takes a lot to actually have a true NPD. And also, most are clinically women ironically. I talk about all the time the use of words like racist, sexist, misogynist, narcissistic etc. Cause then it takes away from the real victims of narcissistic behavior, the real racism an dso on. Most ppl that are assumed to have NPD are actually BPD. But you can't just diagnose that on a whim. Just cause a man is a loud, ego maniac, argues and belittles. That doesn't just mean NPD.
Exactly! Plus he can be all those things an also very generous and willing to help others at times. I’m thinking of the little boy suffering from cancer he just sent a letter, that little boy would have a hard time believing some of the ways/things he’s labeled.
My husband is USMC. Trump came to our base after a huge hurricane evacuated 90% of the base, and ruined the whole area. He came the day we were all allowed back on base. Checked out the base. The surrounding area. Talked to service members etc. Spur of the moment thing for them. Obviously it was planned, but not by much. He wouldn't do these things and keep em quiet if he was a real NPD. He's also a family man. NPD don't have adult children that still speak to them, marriages etc. Even his ex's all don't shit talk him. Petty little stuff, yes. But for the most part. You either love him or hate him. That doesn't just mean NPD. If ppl only realized how hard it is to truly diagnose that illness, they wouldn't be using that word so much.
To put this to rest for those wanting the clinical observations needed here you go:
From the DSM 5
To diagnose a narcissistic personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:
A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
Impairments in self-functioning (a or b):
a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem.
b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high to see oneself as exceptional or too low based on a sense of entitlement, often unaware of their own motivations.
Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.
b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others‟ experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain.
B. Pathological personality traits in the following domain:
Antagonism, characterized by:
a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others, condescending toward others.
b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.
C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.
D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual’s developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.
E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).
What Are The 9 Narcissistic Personality Disorder DSM 5 Criteria or Traits?
In addition to the criteria mentioned above, the DSM-5 narcissism guidelines also point out nine different features of narcissistic personality disorder that professionals should look for when diagnosing the condition: [2]
Inflated self-esteem or a grandiose sense of self-importance or superiority
Craving admiration
Exploitative relationships (i.e., manipulation)
Little to no empathy
Identity is easily disturbed (i.e., can’t handle criticism)
Lack of attachment and intimacy
Feelings of depression or emptiness when not validated
A sense of entitlement
Can feel like others are envious of them, or may envy others.
So once you’ve read through this you can stop referring to Donald Trump as a narcissist. It’s not who he is, obviously.
I'm happy to hear your perspective. I could absolutely be wrong with the "diagnosis." I don't know if he is clinically a narcissist but he definitely craves attention and admiration, has a very grandiose sense of self-importance and certainly think others are envious of him. The rest is up for debate as I don't know him personally. My brother-in-law is a clinical psychologist and my sister a social worker and both think he displays symptoms of NPD and both are voting for him! I think the larger issue is that he hurts himself with his overinflated ego. It undermines the truth of what he says. He went ballistic when Kamala made a false comment about his crowds leaving in droves because they were so bored. She knew that would get him and his non-stop hyperbole of being the BEST, GREATEST etc. is to the extreme. Just for the record I want him to win the election!
Husband is a clinical social worker who has spent 35+ years working with these behaviors. That’s why I recoil at armchair diagnoses. It doesn’t do the general public any good to label people in these ways.
Ok Robyn I understand your point.
He has several markers of malignant narcissism.
No he doesn’t. Read the DSM 5 definition. If you can’t read facts and set aside your feelings, you’ll just have to cling to those feelings and hopelessly move through life.
I loved this article; I think both Jessica and Olivia have an uncommon sense of honesty and confidence. I wonder if Melania is a best friend to him. I heard somewhere they will talk over dinner for hours? Great questions, JRK! I love your curious mind.
Fascinating interview. Great questions and insightful answers from Olivia. I love that the two of you became closer, rather than divide, after a disagreement. Our country could use a whole lot more of this approach.
holy click
RIGHT?!
This article is super interesting (and once again) I’m making a comment that has nothing to do with this article. Megyn Kelly discussing Epstein with Tucker and alludes to some big information coming out.👀 https://youtu.be/uGGRElF0Wss?si=foqekW-xRMiU5gEH
I just finished watching. Very interesting!
Fantastic interview! You have made this election season so much more enjoyable, Jessica. 😊❤️
I’m curious if Olivia is a believer. I ask because she mentioned that she knew things as a child. I believe God gives the gift of discernment to many of us, even before we’re believers.
Great interview, great questions. Insights like this are rare! Jessica can’t wait for your Bobby & Tulsi debut-
I loved the interview and the portrait. Captured him as I feel he is. Trump fascinates me. Wickedly smart, adept, caring and authentic.
I always ask myself with celebrities and politicians, "Would I leave my children with them to watch fir an afternoon?" I definitely would with Donald Trump. They would have fun and he would keep an eye on them. Not many can I say that about. Thank you for this look into the man. Trump for President!
Fascinating article. I loved the behind the scenes insight.
Incredible. Olivia is the epitome of mindfulness. Her ability to allow people to just be is what has her shine as a writer. The key she mentioned in allowing one to involve yourself in the process is the best advice around. When you’re seeking openness but holding back you don’t make a connection; people can tell and also hold back.
Thank you for this interview. You allowed us to not only learn about the interview but also get to know two very talented women perfecting their craft. I love the portrait so much! ❤️🇺🇸❤️
Fun to read this interview!
Reading this felt like the documentation of a soon to be farewell. I have a bad feeling that portrait may be immortalizing him a final time. The psychological scrutiny is fascinating by Olivia and in Jessica’s questions. He’s an intensely interesting person and how he will go down in history will be perceived differently depending.
I’m not sure if Trump has a clinical diagnosis of NPD or just traits (and of course those Gemini tendencies). Either way, I don’t care. This man’s ego has enabled many to awaken. In order to lead to the magnitude we need, he’s bringing it and an enormous threat which is why they want to take him down. My fear is he won’t make it to the election and America will fall. I believe the assassination brought Trump to his knees to God. Olivia describes it perfectly. Jessica I hope you are able to interview Trump and Melania. I’ve asked you before and you said you didn’t want to but I think you do, or would. I know you would bring all the things we’ve wondered. Trump would get a kick out of you and you are strong enough to do it. I have Lyme disease and I’m in bed feeling awful today so I hope my ramblings make sense. Or if they don’t, who cares lol.
Trump can have narc tendencies without being a full blown narcissist. He has some - I find many leaders have the same traits. Either they are raised that way through a dysfunctional upbringing or the tendencies evolved due to the experiences they endured during their climb to power. It’s more than thick skin, it’s mental resilience with a dash of manipulation, ego and relentless self promotion.
On the topic of friendships, I think a lot of men struggle with deep male connections. Powerful men focus on work, women and in Trump’s case, strong relationships with his children. They seem to fill any “friend” gaps. I find his family relationships admirable. The whole family works together and they all get along, that’s unusual. No black sheep’s in the Trump family. Bravo.
Great interview and fantastic read.